Madara/Yagura: The Fourth Mizukage(s)

Posted by Yuffie on July 1, 2010 @ 2:36 pm

In the first page of chapter 404, Tobi reveals to Kisame that he was decieving him. When Tobi removes his mask, Kisame recognizes him as the Fourth Mizukage.

If “Tobi” was the Fourth Mizukage, I find it possible that he could have some connection with the Bloodmist era in Kirigakure. I also feel that at the time, because he was the Mizukage, he probably knew or knew of the Seven Ninja Swordsmen… possibly much like how he knows Kisame.

At the Kage meeting, Raikage points out that Kirigakure is suspicious as they have no diplomatic relations with any other countries. Further more, he points out that Akatsuki was formed in Kirigakure. With Madara probably being the Mizukage at the time, I sure wouldn’t doubt it!

And I could be wrong, but judging from Yaguras appearance, it looks like he was a Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist too.

All of the swords of the Seven Ninja Swordsmen that we have seen so far all have a distinct physical commonality: Large in size. The design of Yagura’s sword and the huge size, to me, suggests that he was a Seven Ninja Swordsmen. That’s at least two that we know Madara has controlled to a degree.

It was rumored that Yagura, the Fourth Mizukage, was being controlled. Thanks to his Byakugan, this was confirmed by Ao in chapter 459 when Ao’s byakugan allowed him to see through the jutsu that Danzo placed on Mifune. Ao noted that he saw through the technique that was being placed on Yagura, the 4th Mizukage, just like he was able to see through the illusion placed on Mifune.

On chapter 458 Danzo also states that there are four people who were known to control Bijuu: Killer Bee, Hashirama, Madara, and Yagura. Now, if Yagura, the Fourth Mizukage is being controlled by Madara then that would explain how Yagura was able to control the tailed beasts… Madara was pulling the strings from behind. #speculation ftw.

The 5th Mizukage chimed in stating that she can’t help but think that there is a connection between that power and the one that controlled the 4th Mizukage. I agree. I can’t help but to think that too, Mizukage-sama!

Thoughts?

sickVisionz

Hmmm, I don’t buy that Madara = Yagura but I can buy Madara controlling him from the shadows.
http://www.narutofandom.com/recent-posts/naruto-manga-chapter-507-review-a-living-lie/ Naruto Manga Chapter 507 Review – A Living Lie! | NarutoFandom.com

[...] to take a second to note a few things though because this page confirms a few things that have been speculated for a while. First, the more obvious, are the rumors surrounding the idea of Yagura being [...]
http://facebook moon killer

i like madara mask … it so perfect … i wanna see madara face … so hard to see her full eyes …
Hassan Shabazz

I think your on track – the seven swordsman thing. I disagree with whomever said that yagura is being controlled in the shadows. I would go as far as to say that madara is currently occupying yaguras body. Madara is strong but I’m sure there would be records of him having use of a jutsu that rivaled shisuis. Madara mentioned he had “special chakra” which he said was the reason he had lived so long. the only plausible explaination is as follows. Madara made a perfect form of the mind transfer techniques that the yamanaka use, or the soul transfer that orochi tried to emulate. It may seem farfetched but check his motives. His ultimate goal is jubi jinchuriki status. He used yagura because he already had control over his tailed beast, had the status of mizukage, and because madara wanted to experience first hand the life of a jinchuriki through yaguras body. he is currently a “shell” of his former self. I believe he is speaking of his soul being separated from his body. His goal is to make himself whole again through obtaining all paths of the rokudo sage, create an eternally young body, and perform Mugen tsukyomi. I also believe that kabuto is aware of this fact. that is all. I hope you reply
Yuffie

Thanks for that response, Hassan! Before I elaborate further, are you currently caught up on the latest chapter of the Naruto Manga?
Hassan

do you mean the crows debut?
http://www.narutofandom.com/members/charles/ Yuffie

Yes, that one! I had to ask to make sure I didn’t spoil things for you. ^^

When I suggested that Madara was controlling Yagura from the shadows, I only assumed that because too often before in the past, we have seen Madara pull all kinds of strings from the shadows with other characters (especially the members of akatsuki). It was confirmed in chapter 507 (Kisame’s flashback) that Yagura was indeed being controlled by Madara from the shadows (literally).

“he is currently a “shell” of his former self. I believe he is speaking of his soul being separated from his body. His goal is to make himself whole again through obtaining all paths of the rokudo sage, create an eternally young body, and perform Mugen tsukyomi. I also believe that kabuto is aware of this fact. that is all.”

Excellent analogy! I could not have said it better myself and I could not agree with you more!
Hassan

Yuffie! I saw that alright. My problems with that are simply these: the koto amatsukami would have to be an unbelievably strong genjustu to overpower a man totally in control of his biju. Hachibi and bee canceled tsukyomi by there two chakras alone. If Madara had such a jutsu, he would not have been in such a rush to get shisuis eye AND he wouldn’t be dissappointed at the fact it was destroyed. I can’t visualize any situation where Madara would seek out anything but necessities. We can assume shisuis mangekyou is not a rokudo path, so why attempt to obtain it when he had the yagura ensarement trick? Btw, you’re pretty cool lol are you on Facebook?
hassan

Have you checked out the people from onemangas forums? Though this is arrogant to say, theyre pretty off.
http://www.narutofandom.com Yuffie

Thanks, Hassan! I totally agree with you about Koto Amatsukami! After the chapter that was just released, I feel clueless (again lol) and trolled. You bring up many good questions that I certainly dont have the answers to. And after this weeks chapter, I dont even know where to begin speculating. I also cant believe that you know who was sealed at the end of the chapter (i was a little dissappointed), so I don’t know what to think but I totally see where you are coming from.

Also, I am i. the process of redesigning the site and revamping EVERYTHING from the ground up! Everything will be different and one of the many new things that I will do is share my facebook as well as real pictures of myself in hopes that readers of this blog like yourself can feel even more connected with me. =D If you would like to add me on facebook before then, leave your email address in the next comment and ill send you an email with the link to my facebook.

And yes, I do read those forums. Like many of the forums that I read related to Naruto, they are quite entertainin lol =D
who knows

If you guys pay close attention when madara pulls the nine tails out of narutos mom.Madara casts the control jutsu on the nine tails and his eyes turn from reg-sharigan-and then then an unknown form with the 3 commas pushed far out to the sides..am I the only one who noticed the sharigan turns into some sort of mangekyou?
who knows

Also its strange how half of yaguras face is stitched up on one side.
Hassan

Hey who knows! What chapter was that? I think if we go back to itachi vs sasuke, itachi said the true purpose for the Sharingan was to control the ninetails. What were you trying to say in your comment?
who knows

Im not sure what chapter.Its like 500 or something but what Im trying to say is I think it shows Tobi/madara’s mangekyou when he pulls it from narutos mother.Also Tobi/madara Says he is bolth uchiha and senju around the time he implants nagatos eye.I think he uses the zetsu bodys for himself it would explain how he chopped off his own arm and the reattached another later on in a different chapter.
who knows

Also Im trying to say just because the fourth mizu had a bijuu inside him doesnt mean he couldnt be controlled because the jutsu are two different things.Wouldnt the user just have to cast the control jutsu for the bijuu then the koto jutsu on the jinchuriki?
Hassan

Hmmm… What were those eyes we saw when Madara told sasuke about history? He showed both his and his brothers mangekyou. Then he showed their combined “eternal” mangekyou were those images false ones? I would say no only because they looked like other eyes that we’ve seen before. Rather than the dots, they are bold “lines” if you will. We’ve never seen such a fragmented form of the mangekyou Sharingan before. Also refer back to sasuke and narutos first known interaction after the time skip. Sasuke put the fox’s chakra in check before he had mangekyou
who knows

That was just a story of madara and his brother..For some reason I seriously doubt the tobi guy is seriously madara..Im pretty sure kabuto showed him the real madaras body when he originaly showed tobi about the edo tensei ability and he reassured him he wouldnt tell anybody..no offence hassan but did you read the manga all the way through haha you must just have a bad memory.
who knows

btw tobi is also very simaliar to obito also would it make since if obito was saved by the zetsu creature?Maybe thats why they are so close to eachother.Have you guys noticed that the sharigan tobi is missing is also the same side that kakashi gained.Also Kakashi’s sharingan uses time/space type jutsu..the same as tobi/madara..
Hassan

I’ve read it all the way. How would obito know about izanagis requirements being both senju and Uchiha? How is it that obito was hella weaker than kakashi when he died but was strong enough to helP with his clans murder? Tell me something else. When did we see betrayal as a part of his Character? How did he k ow the Madara Uchiha of the nine tails incident wore a mask covering the same eye? “Madara” isn’t missing an eye. On the contrary he has a seemingly endless supply on his wall. Why is it his technique matches the 4ths flashbacks description of the other Madaras jutsu? How in the hell did 27 year old obito get strong enough to be equal to be equal to a Kage? The only youthful prodigy capable of that was minato (who only had about 12 years training obito so his skills couldn’t have rubbed off). Now finally, how the hell could obito at 13 be as strong as minato, stronger than hiruzens wife and anbu directly under his command, and master his mangekyou to the extent that his space time techs rivaled the uzumaki clans fuinjutus? Please help me understand how obito went from a scruB barely able to save Rin to rivaling the yellow flash and outsmartin the third in ONE YEAR?! I say you’re wrong if you refute all of this legitamatly. Thanks for your time
who knows

I dont really understand what you mean by “How would he know”….I think he would get as strong the same way nagato did in the same amount of time..You forget that this isnt reality..this is a manga..with the intent of making the reader confused because that goes along with illusion with “nothing is how it seems”…The mangekyou that kakashi uses was obitos..its proof alone obito was alot stronger then he thought he was or precived to be.Im positive in the end that you will find out that tobi/madara was alot more people then you might think.(Sorry english is not my first lang)
who knows

Also you totally downgrade what yuffie commented on when you say “I disagree with whomever said that yagura is being controlled in the shadows. I would go as far as to say that madara is currently occupying yaguras body” It shows in the manga madara behind yag..so no he isnt in yags body..and then you say “itachi said the true purpose for the Sharingan was to control the ninetails.” this is also false..the sharigan was passed down to one of the two sons of the great sennin..it is a tool also used control the bijuu not just the nine tails. Koto amatsukumi is a jutsu used only by shisui it is not for controling bijuu but for controlling people..The jutsu for complete control over the nine tails madara/tobi says you need the complete mangekyou which is itachi’s mangekyou implanted into sasque which will give him an eternal mang and a new jutsu to control the bijuu.The eye you see when madara give sasque a history lesson is the madara complete mangekyou the eyes he took from his brother…also..madara story changes itachi tells a slightly diff story then madara..so I wouldnt believe everything you hear..because once again..they a re shinobi…nothing is ever as it seems..(that is the whole emphasis on the last saga of naruto btw)
Hassan

Firstly… reality has nothing to do with it. You’ve got to understand that within the world that they live in, time is what EVERY ninja has needed to become stronger. It is totally farfetched within the naruto world (which is what all of my thoughts are based on) that someone like obito would grow strong enough to kill the uchiha clan with itachi. Furtherore Obitos mangekyou was opened by kakashi. That is not proof of obitos strength but of Kakashis.
I have not downgraded yuffies statement at all. I am saying that Madara is CURRENTLY occupying yaguras body. I spoke nothing of the blood mist era. How can Madara be currently controlling yagura if yagura is dead?
Itachi said its purpose was the nine tails. He spoke nothing of the other biju.
When has my stance in this whole thing been that Madara is a honest guy? Never. The validity of Madaras flashback is not the argument here. It is whether or not Madara and yagura are one in the same. We yagura was being controlled. I am saying that madara is using his body. please answer my questions about obitos character and how you see him become impossibly strong in one year. Even Nagato did not get that strong in one year. Nor did minato or naruto or sasuke or orochimaru or hiruzen or kakashi or any other ninja we’ve seen. no worries on the english stuff lol!
http://www.narutofandom.com/members/charles/ Yuffie

I apologize for going off the topic of Yagura and Madara, but this is a very interesting discussion from both ends, but I will address a few things that popped out to myself.

“Madara casts the control jutsu on the nine tails and his eyes turn from reg-sharigan-and then then an unknown form with the 3 commas pushed far out to the sides..am I the only one who noticed the sharigan turns into some sort of mangekyou?”

Yes! I noticed this immediately! The center pupil of the eye was much larger which shared a striking resemblance to Danzo’s sharingan. I created a side by side image of that here to show how I came to that strange conclusion. You can check that out here: http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/685/danzomadarasharingan.jpg

It never crossed my mind that that could be a design of his mangekyou, but that is an excellent point. I haven’t seen this part of the chapter animated yet, so after rereading that chapter, what I take from it is that the panel where his eye appears that way is to illustrate the transition from the pupils growing from a “normal sharingan” to the larger version that we are talking about. I could be wrong, but If this scene were animated, it would help clarify things for me.

Kushina’s flashback where she talks about the Kyuubi and the attack that happened on Konoha with the Nine Tails are chapters 499-505 incase you have any pages you wish to reference.

“btw tobi is also very simaliar to obito also would it make since if obito was saved by the zetsu creature?Maybe thats why they are so close to eachother.Have you guys noticed that the sharigan tobi is missing is also the same side that kakashi gained.Also Kakashi’s sharingan uses time/space type jutsu..the same as tobi/madara..”

I have noticed this too. These are some interesting parallels that I have not been able to verify as fact or not due to the lack of information that Kishi has not shared with us (yet).
who knows

Thanks yuffie on actually researching what I said.If you really go back and just start reading you can see that madara/tobi is really good at changing personalities and pretending to be different people.HASSAN madara also states he gave nagato his eyes he says they were his in the first place and that HE gave them to nagato.Nagato shows naruto what happend that night and madara /tobi wasnt there..so how can you rule out madara being able to be anywhere or anyone at anytime period.Why the hell would he be hiding behind a mask and calling himself madara..why not show everyone he really is madara?Why?because hes probably not just madara.
who knows

@Hassan also you said tobi has a wall of sharingan..heh danzo says he collected his sharingan from the slaughtered uchiha in the itachi incident..how the hell do you think that giant wall of sharingan could of even came to be?
Hassan

O man… Who knows…. Ugh! Listen… I’ve researched what you said long before you put that b.s on this forum. Let’s call it how it is. Madara has not shown he can be many different personalities but two. Those were tobi who was timid and himself who is rigid. Now let’s talk about nagato “showing naruto what happened”. BULLSHIT! that was a flashback shares with the reader and not given to naruto. You also act like the author gives you all the details of something on the first go (check out chapter 366 and 403) in these we see that the author intentionally lef us in the dark about what itachi did until many chapters later. Also don know what Madara meant by he gave nagato the rinnegan. If you believe his statement about rinnegan, why not believe that he is actually Madara? If he’s trustworthy to you, you refute every argument you’ve made thus far. Next… The reason I can rule out Madara being anywhere and anyone at anytime, why would he do extremely indiscreet things like appearing in front of minato and showing himself to the kages? Next Why do anbu hide behind masks? Why did zabuza where tape around his face? Why does kakashi where a mask? To hide there identity? Nope. It is a basic shinobi principle to hide human characteristics so that you become more like a weapon. He’s an ultimate shinobi that helped define the very principles that our heroes adopted. Why wouldn’t he keep tradition? Please come with a theory that is consistent with the manga. LASTLY the eye formation previously spoken of is NOT related. I say this because the jutsu that controlled people was a mangekyou tech that shisui had. We say shisuis eye formation imbedded in the crow. Danzou did NOT show this formation. Saying that tech was Madaras mangekyou is gonna need evidence outside of Danzou and shisui. Sorry bro. You can’t win this one. Better luck next time. I think it’s funny that you have not addressed a lot of the issues I’ve presented. Please do.
who knows

what am I trying to win…?I think you have issues buddy..its you who are ignoring the plain facts…every example I have given has been straight from the manga..it is you who are giving false information and are disproving facts based on what you think..I think your just trolling..I really dont think you’ve even read the whole series…
Hassan

I refuted your whole argument. Have you checked what I said with the manga? Read it and then reply. I’m as caught up as anyone. I’ve read every chapter of naruto
Hassan

What have I said that isn’t consistent with the manga?
who knows

No sir.Thats what I was trying to adress..maybe the japanese vs is diff but the translation yuffie provides is correct..i dunno..
who knows

this is a discussion..not an argument you gave your point I gave mine.Lets just end it here I really enjoyed it.
Saske

I don’t get it. Who released the three tailed beast when Tobi…..I mean Madara had Yagura in his hands. Why was the tailed beast released?
KeiichiPSX

I love yagura!! your post came true yuff!! im late on reading this post, but it was still a good read especially these comments lol
Whoknows

Hassan if you read the current issue madara has been summoned back to life..So like I said tobi isnt madara..and at the conclusion I wouldnt be surprised if you found out that tobi is actually pretending to be a few people..
Unknowing

Hi Guy, what your opinion about Madara coming from Endo Tensey?
http://www.facebook.com/people/Hassan-Shabazz/1332254071 Hassan Shabazz

Who knows.. It would be foolish to debate with you on whether tobi is madara or not. I think the possibility is still there. I have a few questions for everyone who has posted something. If tobi is obito, do you really believe that at his young age he could fight equally with his sensei? Furthermore, Do you believe that he would have enough power to control the 4th mizukage? These two are the last, (I sincerely hope whoknows answers these) Do you find it suspicious that tobi said he needed to “steal a substitute” while looking at the gedo statue and then later Madara appears in a coffin with knowledge of who nagato was? Madara thought that he had been revived with gedo rinne tensei (which gives life to someone who has recently died) and not edo tensei. Lastly, Kisame recognized tobi as Madara. Was he decieved? If so, Why?
http://www.facebook.com/people/Hassan-Shabazz/1332254071 Hassan Shabazz

oh! I almost forgot! The main link that binds tobi and madara is tobis statement that nagatos rinne tensei was supposed to be used for him. See chapter 453 on page 17. If you can explain how this statement and Madaras statement has no link whatsoever, I can see your point as valid.
Elmodadog

well madara eat some of your balls so that your’e mom gonna suck me tonight oh yeah. . . .
bomber116

i think tobi either uchiha kagami or uchiha madara younger brother..:)
Dasf

For the record…. Yagura is not one of the Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist…. that’s a staff that he is holding. I don’t know why you think its a sword. Anybody can see that it is a staff.
Dikoypido

i think body of obito was used by tobi, so tobi and kakashi has the same shiringan…..